Did any sceptics ever consider Pilate a myth?

Believers sometimes claim that sceptics thought Pilate was a myth, up until an inscription naming him was found in 1961. There are numerous examples of this,

e.g. -

John Warwick Montgomery in "The Jury Returns: A Juridical Defense of Christianity"

' Modern archaeological research has confirmed again and again the reliability of New Testament geography, chronology, and general history. To take but a single, striking example: After the rise of liberal biblical criticism, doubt was expressed as to the historicity of Pontius Pilate, since he is mentioned even by pagan historians only in connection with Jesus' death. Then, in 1961, came the discovery at Caesarea of the now famous "Pilate inscription," definitely showing that, as usual, the New Testament writers were engaged in accurate historiography. '

http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissart1.htm

or -

"For years, skeptics have claimed that Pontius Pilate, the one responsible for Jesus' execution, was nothing more than a mythical figure."

http://defendchristianfaith.blogspot.com/2009/02/did-pontius-pilate-actually-exist.html

or -

"How can atheists deny that Herod and Pontius Pilate existed when there are coins that were issued by them ? I have seen them. When they say the Bible is fiction, they would have to also deny numismatic evidence. "

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080209071413AAd4maf

or -

"When critics of the Passion of the Christ argue about Pilate not being historical and Caiaphas being too rabid, they are ignoring Biblical accounts and secular history because they don’t like the Biblical story."

http://www.bible-sermons.org/classes/Passion2.doc

So, what does the record of history actually show ?

Here I list the references to Pilate through the centuries - I have included all the main cites I could find - Christian writers as well as sceptics. If any sceptic had claimed Pilate did not exist, some Christian would surely mention that - in the same way that when early sceptics denied Jesus came in the flesh, we see various Christians insisting he DID so.

Contemporary, early 1st century

Philo Judaeus was a direct contemporary of Pilate, and he refers to Pilate twice in his historical work "On the Embassy to Gaius" :

"Pilate was one of the emperor's lieutenants, having been appointed governor of Judaea."

Clearly Philo thought Pilate was historical.


Late 1st century

Josephus in late 1st century records Pilate numerous times in his two historical books (Wars and Antiquities), e.g. :

"When Gratus had done those things, he went back to Rome, after he had tarried in Judea eleven years, when Pontius Pilate came as his successor."

Clearly Josephus thought Pilate was historical.

Early 2nd century

Tacitus refers to Pilate in his Annals 15.44 around 116 CE :

"Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus,"

Clearly, Tacitus thought Pilate was historical, (although he does get his title wrong.)

 

Late 1st and 2nd century

Many early Christian books mention Pilate for his part in Jesus' story :

Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, The Epistle of the Apostles, The Gospel of Peter, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Acts of Peter and Paul, the various Pilate forgeries, Irenaeus, Melito of Sardis, Clement of Alexandria.

Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.

3rd century

Porphyry's fragments mentioned Pilate as historical.

Many Christian works and writers mention Pilate :

Acts of Andrew, Acts of Peter and Andrew, Acts of Thadeus, Acts of Thomas, Against Novatian, Acta Pilati, The Teaching of Simon Cephas in Rome, The Clementina, Cyprian of Carthage, Hippolytus, Origen, Peter of Alexandria, Tertullian.

Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.

4th century

Many Christian works and writers mention Pilate :

The Constitution of the Holy Apostles, The Doctrine of Addai, The Gospel of Nicodemus, Ambrose, Aphrahat, Athanasius, Augustine, Basil the Great, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephraim of Syria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Gennadius, Gregory Nazianzen, Gregory of Nyssa, Hilary of Poitiers, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Lactantius, Macarius Magnes, Optatus of Miletus, Palladius of Helenopolis, Rufins.

Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.

5th century

Many Christian works and writers mention Pilate :

Aurelius Prudentius, Cyril of Alexandria, John Cassian, Leo the Great, Moses of Chorene, Philoxenus, Socrates Scholasticus, Sozomenus, Theodoret.

Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.

6th and 7th century

Several Christian works and writers mention Pilate :

Aurelius Prudentius, Cyril of Alexandria, John Cassian, Leo the Great, Moses of Chorene, Philoxenus, Socrates Scholasticus, Sozomenus, Theodoret, Antiochus Strategos, John Nikiu.

Every single one of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.

~9th century

The Anglo Saxon Chronicle mentions Pilate as historical :

 

"A.D. 26. This year Pilate began to reign over the Jews."

10th century

Various forged books about Pilate appear (e.g. The Death of Pilate) - all based on him being historical. No mention of any sceptics who claim he was a myth.

11th, 12th, 13th centuries

Various Christian books mention Pilate :

St Anselm, Giraldus Cambrensis, Barlaam and Ioasaph, Thomas Aquinas,.

Each of these books cites Pilate as a historical figure. No mention of sceptics who thought otherwise.

14th century

Dante mentions Pilate as historical in his Inferno.

The Travels of John Mandeville refer to Pilate as historical.

Chaucer mentions Pilate.

Henry Suso mentions Pilate as historical.

Julian of Norwich does too.

No hint of any sceptics who claimed he was a myth.

16th century

Edmund Spencer's "The Faerie Queen" mentions Pilate.

James Arminius mentions Pilate as historical.

John of the Cross mentions Pilate as historical.

Christopher Goodman's "How Superior Powers Ought To Be Obeyed" mentions Pilate as historical.

Teresa of Avila mentions Pilate as historical.

No hint of any sceptics who claimed he was a myth.

17th century

Shakespeare mentions Pilate as historical.

Blaise Pascal mentions Pilate as historical.

Francis Bacon mentions Pilate as historical.

John Locke mentions Pilate as historical.

No hint of any sceptics who claimed he was a myth.

18th century

Dupuis mentions Pilate as historical in his sceptical book which argues Christ was a myth :

' Those who have "fabricated" it, have added thereto fictitious events, not only at known places, as all the ancient poets have done in the fables of Hercules, Bacchus, Osiris, &c., but also at an epoch with well known names, such as the age of Augustus, of Tiberius, of Pontius Pilate, &c.; which does not prove the real existence of Christ, but only that the sacerdotal fiction is posterior to that epoch; and of this we have no doubt.'

Edward Gibbon mentions Pilate as historical in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire".

Thomas Paine mentions Pilate as historical in his sceptical book.

No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.

19th century

Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma" mentions Pilate as historical.

Strauss' famous and sceptical "Life of Jesus Crtically Examined" mentions Pilate as historical.

Renan's famous and sceptical "The Life of Jesus" mentions Pilate as historical.

No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.

Early 20th century

Albert Schweitzer's famous and sceptical "The Quest for the Historical Jesus" mentions Pilate many times as historical.

Gerald Massey the mythicist mentions Pilate as historical.

John E. Remsberg's sceptical "The Christ" mentions Pilate as historical.

Joseph Wheless' sceptical "Forgery in Christianity" mentions Pilate as historical.

M.M. Mangasarian's sceptical "The Truth about Jesus" mentions Pilate as historical.

Marshall Gauvin's sceptical "Did Jesus Christ really Live?" mentions Pilate as historical.

Shirley Jackson Case's critical "The Historicity of Jesus" mentions Pilate as historical.

Walter Bauer's "Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity" mentions Pilate as historical.

G.R.S. Mead's "Did Jesus live 100 BC?" mentions Pilate as historical many times.

Kirsopp Lake's "Landmarks" mentions Pilate as historical.

Walter Cassels "Supernatural Religion" mentions Pilate as historical.

No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.

 

Mid 20th century

Alvin Boyd Kuhn's sceptical "Who is this King of Glory" mentions Pilate as historical.

Maurice Goguel's sceptical "Jesus the Nazarene - Myth or History?" has Pilate as historical.

Alfred Loisy "The Bith of the Christian Religion" has Pilate as historical.

Edgar J. Goodspeed's "An Introduction to the New Testament" has Pilate as historical.

Edward Carpenter's "Pagan and Christian Creeds : Their Origin and Meaning" has Pilate as historical.

No hint of any sceptical claims that Pilate was a myth.

 

1961

An inscription is found mentioning Pilate's name - the first archeological evidence for Pilate.

After 1961

Christian apologists start claiming that before the inscription was found Pilate was considered by sceptics to have been a myth.

 

Summary

There is NO evidence anywhere that anyone ever considered Pilate a myth.

We have dozens of references to him from almost every century, even including contemporary accounts. Every single one considers him historical.

Even the sceptics who argued Jesus was a myth agree that Pilate was historical.

Not one believer in history ever mentions anyone claiming Pilate was a myth.

 

Conclusion

The claim that any sceptics ever said Pilate was a myth is totally FALSE.

　

Who claimed to have met a historical Jesus ?

It is frequently claimed that we have multiple eye-witnesses who claimed to have met Jesus. This is probably why believers respond with cries of

"why would they die for a lie?"

"how could it all be a hoax?"

"that's just a conspiracy theory"

when a sceptic claims the Gospels are not true history.

 

Because - believers are convinced we have numerous reliable claims from identifiable people that they met Jesus - thus if Jesus did not exist, then all those eye-witness claims must have been a "hoax". If Jesus was not historical, the claims to have met him must have been a "lie", If Jesus never lived then all those multiple claimed eye-witnesses must have been involved in a "conspiracy".

So, let's examine the evidence -
How many :

identifiable people

claimed to have met Jesus

in authentic writing?

Paul

Paul never met a historical Jesus, and never claimed to.

He did claim to have had revelations "thru Christ" etc.

He did claim to have had a vision of Christ.

And others (Acts) claim Paul had a vision of Christ.

It is worth noting that Paul does not place Iesous Christos in history :

No places - Paul never mentions Bethlehem, Nazareth, Galilee, Calvary, etc.

No dates - Paul never places Iesous Christos in time.

No names - Paul never mentions Mary, Joseph, Pilate, Judas, Nicodemus, Lazarus etc.

No miracles - Paul never mentions the miracles/healings of Jesus

No trial/tomb - Paul never mentions the trial or the empty tomb etc.

Paul's Christos is a heavenly being, not a historical person.

 

the 500

Paul claims 500 others had a vision of Christ. The Gospels do not mention that, no other writer mentions that, and we have no names or evidence for any of the 500. Even IF it happened - they had a VISION like Paul - nothing historical.

G.Mark

The author of this book never identifies himself, and never claims to have met Jesus. According to traditon, Mark was a secretary of Peter and never met Jesus. This Gospel, like all of them, started out as an un-named book.

G.Matthew

 

The author of this book never identifies himself, and never claims to have met Jesus. According to tradition it was written by an apostle - but it never says so, and it mentions Matthew without the slightest hint that HE was writing it.

G.Luke

The author of this book never identifies himself, and never claims to have met Jesus. According to tradition it was written by a follower of Paul.

G.John

According to tradition this Gospel was written by the apostle John, and the last chapter says :

"This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true."

This is part of a chapter that was added to the Gospels, and it is clearly someone else making a claim for the book. It most certainly does not even come close to specific claim that anyone personally met Jesus.

 

Jude

This letter contains no claim to have met Jesus.

Johanines

1 John contains this passage :

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete."

Some believers assert this is a claim to have met Jesus.

What did he see and hear? He certainly never says it was Jesus. He just had a spiritual experience and wants to tell everyone about it - "God is light". Nothing here about any historical Jesus at all.

James

There is no claim to have met Jesus in this letter - supposedly from Jesus' BROTHER ! Yet it contains NOTHING anywhere about a historical Jesus, even where we would expect it. It is clear this writer had never even HEARD of a historical Jesus.

Revelation

No claim to have met Jesus.

the Petrines

2 Peter has this passage :

"1.16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount."

Here we see Peter directly claim to have witnessed Jesus' transfiguration. The ONE and ONLY such direct personal claim in the entire NT.

But -

2 Peter is the very latest and most suspect book in the whole NT - scholars agree it is a forgery, so do many Christians, ancient and modern. A late and deliberate forgery that claims NOT to be based on "cunningly devised fables" - probably in direct response to critics claims. THAT is the one single book that contains a claim to have met Jesus.

Clement

Never claimed to have met Jesus or anyone who did.

Papias

Does not claim to have met Jesus or anyone who had. He did claim to have met Presbyters who told him what some disciples had said. Discusses two books of Matthew and Mark , not called Gospels, not quite like modern Gospels.

 

 

Polycarp

Never claimed to have met Jesus or anyone who did. Irenaeus claimed Polycarp met discples who met Jesus.

 

Ignatius

Never claimed to have met Jesus or anyone who did.

 

Justin

Never claimed to have met anyone who met Jesus. Discusses UN-NAMED Gospels not quite like ours.

So,

the entire NT contains only ONE specific claim to have met a historical Jesus - from the most suspect forgery in the whole book. There is NOT ONE reliable claim by anyone to have ever met Jesus.

But -
there is a vast body of CLAIMS by later Christians - claims that are NOT supported by the earlier books, or by history.

So,

If Jesus wasn't historical, there is NO LIE, NO HOAX and NO CONSPIRACY required at all - because there are NO actual claims to have met Jesus to be a hoax or a lie or a conspiracy in the first place.

 

Just later books and claims, and claims about books.

 

Seed of David in the Sphere of Flesh

Much is made of the phrase 'seed of David' as a counter example to Doherty's sub-lunar incarnation theory. Here is my answer based largely on his work :

Let's look at Romans 1:3 in context (NRSV) :

1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised [or announced] beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead...

Notice the introduction :

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised [or announced] beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures,

Paul is describing a gospel previously promised or announced (Greek proepangello προεπηγγείλατο) in the scriptures. This gospel has been announced in scripture, the writing of the prophets. It was there all the time, encoded in scripture, but now Paul has realized it's meaning ("according to the revelation of the mystery kept in silence for long ages but now made known..." Rom. 16:25)

And what does this gospel say?

It describes two features of Christ :

1. who was descended from David in the sphere of the flesh
2. and was declared to be Son of God with power in the sphere of the spirit ...

Paul is describing the two phases or locations of Christ's experience - one is in the sphere of the spirit (upper heaven), the other is in the sphere of the flesh (lower heavens) where he was crucified by the prince of power of the Air.

In that lower heaven, the 1st heaven, the Air beneath the Moon, where he was crucified, he took on flesh, specifically David's descendent's flesh because that's what scripture fortold.

I know it seems odd that flesh should occupy a heaven, but I think it comes down to it being the LOWER heaven, which is of flesh in Paul's thinking. It doesn't make much sense to modern thinking, but that's how I think Paul saw it.

Did the writer of the Epistle of James know a historical Jesus?

Now James was allegedly the BROTHER of Jesus,
so
we would expect his letter to be chock-full of personal details about Jesus.

Well, guess what?

The letter of James only even MENTIONS the name "Jesus" twice in the whole letter.
It has NO personal details at all !

NOT one shred of historical information about Jesus can be found in the letter allegedly from a member of his FAMILY !

The person who wrote the letter of James had OBVIOUSLY never even HEARD of a historical Jesus.

Let examine the letter to see what I mean -

　

The ONLY 2 places to use the name Jesus are here :

1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are in the Dispersion: Greetings.

The introduction of the letter, mentions he is a "servant" of God and of Lord Jesus Christ (ie. a typical faithful phrase invoking their highest names) - totally FAILS to mention he is brother to Jesus.

2:1 My brothers, don't hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with partiality.

Another faithful phrase telling us nothing about Jesus. No mention James is his brother.

　

What DON'T we see in James :

NO mention of Jesus' family at all - NO Mary or Joseph or siblings.
NO mention of the birth stories - NO Bethlehem, Nazareth, Magi, Herod, the flight...
NO mention of teachings Jesus - NO sermon, Lord's prayer, food regulations
NO mention of miracles - NO Lazarus, feeding the multitude, healing the sick...
NO mention of any Gospel event - NO Teaching at the Temple, Temple Cleansing, Triumphal Entry, Temptation, Baptism in Jordan etc, etc...
NO mention of the trial of Jesus - NO Pilate, Sanhedrin, Judas etc...
NO mention of the empty tomb, the crucifixion, the resurrection !!!


I can not find a SINGLE PIECE of historical information about Jesus in the whole epistle of James. From a person who was supposedly in Jesus' very family and probably would have experienced many of these events if they had really happened.
　

Even when expected

Even worse, if you do read James, there are many places where you would expect him to mention Jesus or his teaching -

Chapter 1 talks about resisting temptation - NO mention of the temptation of Jesus !

Chapter 2 starts like this in some versions - "do you .. really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ?" (a different translation of the phrase which in the Greek goes something like this: "do not with partiality believe in Jesus Christ the glorious").

Here is James trying to convince them to believe in Jesus Christ, and he totally fails to even mention he knew Jesus, let alone was his brother - instead all he gives to try and prove Jesus is some preaching about the poor and the rich WITHOUT mentioning anything Jesus said about the poor.

James quotes "Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself" - but NOT from Jesus, just "scripture".

James preaches about adultery - NO mention of Jesus' teachings.

James argues that faith without works is useless - when he provides examples, it's from the OT - Abraham, Rahab - NO mention of Jesus.

James reminds people not to curse or speak evil - NO mention of Jesus' teachings on that.

James preaches about suffering and patience - NO mention of Jesus as example, just Job and the prophets.

James talks about the church elders bringing healing and forgiving sins - NO mention of Jesus doing that.

James even invokes Elijah who was a "human being like us" - NO mention of Jesus !
　

James never knew any Jesus

In dozens of places, James preaches something that CRIES out for a mention of Jesus or his teachings - but it looks like James has never even HEARD of Jesus of Nazareth - just the risen Christ, a spiritual being.

　

Note that James uses the phrase "my brothers (and sisters)" DOZENS of times - NOT the slightest hint that HE is the brother of Jesus anywhere in the letter.

　

There simply is NOTHING about Jesus in the letter of James to indicate the writter had ever even HEARD of a historical Jesus.

　

Vision of Isaiah as a mythicist text

The Vision of Isaiah is part of a larger work called the Ascension of Isaiah. The AoI is Christian work from probably the 2nd C. It has a story of Jesus descending through the heavens to be crucified. Unfortunately it is a highly variant work with many interpolations and differences. I discuss the MSS issue below.

Doherty claims it is evidence for a mythicist Jesus who descended only as far as the firmament (and Sheol) but NOT to Earth. GakuseiDon points out certain features that suggest there WAS an earthly component. Here is what I found.

Isaiah's Ascent

On the way up, we get this description of what is about to happen -

"(7):9. And we ascended to the firmament, I and he, and there I saw Satan and his hosts, and there was great fighting therein and the angels of Satan were envying one another. 10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth. 11. And I said unto the angel "what is this envying?" 12. And he said unto me: "So has it been since this world was made until now, and this war (will continue) till He [Jesus], whom thou shalt see will come and destroy him [Satan].""

Note that here a pair of corresponding Platonic planes is specifically mentioned (As Above So On the Earth) : Firmament - Earth. On Earth we find a "likeness" of what is in the firmament.

It is made clear to Isaiah while in the firmament, that Satan (who is there in the firmament) will be "destroyed" by Jesus - apparently in the firmament.

No mention of Earth in Jesus' work. Clearly Jesus will be acting in the firmament.

The Crucifixion described

The crucifixion (and descent to Sheol) is described Ch.9 :

"(9):14. And the god of that world [Satan] will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will hang Him upon a tree and kill him, and will slay Him not knowing who He is. 15. And thus His descent, as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is. 16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day 17. And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till the Lord Christ ascend and they ascend with Him."

We see that Satan will unknowingly crucify Jesus in the firmament, Jesus will then descend to Sheol to plunder the angel of death and bring back the (spirits of the) righteous.

No mention of any earthly visit there.
　

The Commission from God.

Christ is commissioned to travel through all the heavens and Sheol :

"(10):8 Go forth and descend through all the heavens, and thou wilt descent to the firmament and that world: to the angel in Sheol thou wilt descend, but to Haguel thou wilt not go."

No mention of Earth in the list of travels.

And he shall take the various likenesses of the heavens, the firmament, and Sheol :

"(10):9. And thou wilt become like unto the likeness of all who are in the five heavens. 10. And thou wilt be careful to become like the form of the angels of the firmament and the angels also who are in Sheol."

No mention of Earth in the list of likenesses.

But his identity will be secret from angels and heavens

"(10):11. And none of the angels of that world shall know that Thou art with Me of the seven heavens and of their angels. 12. And they shall not know that Thou art with Me, till with a loud voice I have called (to) the heavens, and their angels and their lights, (even) unto the sixth heaven, in order that you mayest judge and destroy the princes and angels and gods of that world, and the world that is dominated by them:"

No mention of Earth in the list of secrets.

Also note that the task Jesus has to do (once he is called) is to destroy the princes etc. (i.e. Satan and cohorts) of that world - i.e. the firmament. No mention of any earthly task.

Afterwards he will ascend from the Gods of death through the heavens :

"14. And afterwards from the angels of death Thou wilt ascend to Thy place. And Thou wilt not be transformed in each heaven, but in glory wilt Thou ascend and sit on My right hand."

No mention of Earth in the ascent phase.
　

The Descent.

We see the descent through all the heavens, in which Jesus takes on the likeness or form of each of the various heavens on the way, finally descending from the lowest heaven, through the firmament, to the Air beneath - where he was made like the angels of the Air :

"29. And again He descended into the firmament where dwelleth the ruler of this world, and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles. 30. And I saw when He descended and made Himself like unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them. 31. And He gave no password; for one was plundering and doing violence to another."

(Around that point an interpolation breaks in (Slav and Lat2 omit it), we will pick up the story again at (11):23 with the ascent phase beginning. )

It's quite clear - Satan will crucify Jesus, not on earth, but in the firmament. Then Jesus will descend to Sheol for 3 days, and return with many of the righteous (i.e. presumably their souls.)

There is no earthly part to this story at all.
　

Finally - the Ascent.

We see the ascent phase begin - Christ has returned from the Air to the firmament but now his identity is open and Satan is sorrowful that they did not percieve it on the way down :

"(11):23. And I saw [Him], and He was in the firmament, but He had not changed Himself into their form, and all the angels of the firmament and the Satans saw Him and they worshipped. 24. And there was much sorrow there, while they said: "How did our Lord descend in our midst, and we perceived not the glory, which we see has been upon Him from the sixth heaven?""

No mention of Earth anywhere at the bottom of the ascent - the lowest we heard of was the Air.

The ascent finishes up through the heavens again - nothing earthly.
　

Critical MSS Variations.

There are two main families of MSS being considered here :

• the main Ethiopic MSS family
• the Slavonic and Latin2 MSS (very similar.)

The Ethiopic MSS family has certain additions and expansions, compared to the Slav. and Lat2 MSS as follows -

1. The whole of (11):2-22 (a nativity story) is not found in Slav and Lat2, and is clearly an addition that adds a simple Jesus earthly incarnation episode.

2. Then, in Chapter 9, there is crucial passage, which GakuseiDon has cited as evidence against a mythical interpretation

"[12... until the Beloved descends in the form in which you will see him descend. 13. The Lord will indeed descend [into the world] in the last days who is to be called Christ after he has descended and become like you in form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.]"

This section clearly seems to have replaced a shorter passage in MSS Slav and Lat2 :

"when he descends and is like you in form"

[
Added by edit :
I was mistaken in suggesting this passage is not present in MSS Slav and L2. GakuseiDon is correct that "in your form" is found in all the MSS and argues against the mythicist view. This makes my essay here in error, and argues for an earthly visit after all.
]

This addition serves to add an earthly layer, to a mythicist original. Even then to "think that he is" flesh and a man still implies he isn't actually so - it's hardly evidence for earthly descent of Jesus.

3. A further historicist interpolation can be found with "into the world" above - not found in most of the Ethiopic MSS. Another addition that serves to add a worldly connection where none was present before.

4. There are two more historicist changes discussed below as well.

So we can see several examples where the Ethiopic MSS have passages which are added to or longer than the Slav and Lat2 MSS. Several of these passages serve to specifically add an earthly layer to the story.

It is much more likely that passages are ADDED, not subtracted, so this seems clear evidence that an early version of this book had NO such rearthly references.

(Otherwise it would mean some editor has REMOVED several earthly bits - and who would do that except a mythicist?)

Either way - this is evidence that one MSS tradition was mythicist in form - with NO descent to Earth. Like Doherty says.
　

Where is Jesus made like a man ?

GakuseiDon points out that when the descent is initially prophesied - it is said that Jesus will descend to resemble [Isaiah's] form and likeness - i.e. that he WILL descend as far as Earth and take on the form of a man, so therefore somewhere in the descent he must make it to earth.

"(8):9. And that thou mayest see the Lord of all those heavens and these thrones. 10. Undergoing (successive) transformation until He resembles your form and likeness.

26. ...for those who trust in that Lord who will descend in your form."

Quote: Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

"If Jesus isn't in the form of a man when he descends into the air, then tell me: where is Jesus actually made into the form of a man?"

He isn't !

[
Added by edit:
Presumably on earth after all. I was mistaken about MSS Slave and L2.]
]

It turns out that BOTH those earthly bits are also missing from the Slav. and Lat2 MSS tradition. There is NO such expectation of an earthly form in that MSS tradition.

In other words - all the passages that GakuseiDon points to as referring to an earthly part, are only found in one MSS tradition. There is another MSS tradition which does NOT have these earthly parts.
　

Summary

At least one of the MSS traditions is a mythical descent of Jesus down thru the heavens to the firmament, (and the Air); followed by crucifixion in the firmament, a 3 day descent to Sheol, and his re-ascent back to heaven. (The only earthly parts are missing from one MSS tradition entirely suggesting they have been ADDED by someone editor who disagreed with the mythicist version.)

Earth is not mentioned, the journey clearly did not include earth.

Doherty is right - this IS (at least in one MSS tradition) an example of a mythicist text in which Jesus descends NOT to earth but to the firmament.

[
Added by edit :
It appears Doherty and I were mistaken on this issue.
]


　
This diagram shows how I interpret the journey according to the Vision :

 

The Heaven Beneath the Firmament Part 3

Here is a little essay on Paul's Heavens, building on from the previous two showing how I believe Paul refers to a crucifixion which took place in a lower heaven, not on earth.


Paul's Heavens

So we have seen how the Christian and Greek spheres of existence could be seen (not that everyone saw it the same way - I am focusing on Paul's time and Paul's words.)

On of the writers that combines Jewish/Christian with Greek thought is Philo ("Mr Love") who was a direct contemporary of Paul and wrote many works which are considered almost proto-Christian - some later writers considered Philo WAS a Christian.

Now let's look at Philo's fascinating comments about Jacob's Ladder -


Jacob's Ladder is the Air

In Christian tradition, Jacob's Ladder is in heaven :

G.John 1:51 :
And he said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

But Philo specifically says Jacob's ladder is figuratively the Air - bridging the large interior space between Earth and Moon / Heaven :

Philo, On Dreams, 1st C. :
Very admirably therefore does Moses represent the Air under the figurative symbol of a ladder, as planted solidly in the earth and reaching up to heaven. For it comes to pass that the evaporations which are given forth by the earth becoming rarefied, are dissolved into air, so that the earth is the foundation and root of the air, and that the heaven is its head.

The ladder reaches from the Moon, it's head is in heaven :

Philo, On Dreams, 1st C. :
By the ladder in this thing, which is called the world, is figuratively understood the Air, the foundation of which is the earth, and the head is the heaven; for the large interior space, (which being extended in every direction, reaches from the orb of the moon, which is described as the most remote of the order in heaven, but the nearest to us by those who contemplate sublime objects, down to the earth, which is the lowest of such bodies,) is the air.

The Moon lies at the boundary of aether and air and combines them :

Philo, On Dreams, 1st C. :
Accordingly it is said that the moon is not an unadulterated consolidation of pure aether, as each of the other stars is, but is rather a combination of the aether-like and air-like essence. For the black spot which appears in it, which some call a face, is nothing else but the air mingled with it, which is by nature black, and which extends as far as heaven.

Later, Basil says Heaven is in the Air :

Basil the Great, Homilies, 4th C. :

"In the Firmament of Heaven," that is to say, as we have said before, in that part of the Air called heaven (ouranos), from the word oran, which means to see; called Firmament, because the air which extends over our heads, compared to the aether, has greater density,

From all this, we get a picture like so:

The Third Heaven

In Paul's time, there was reference specifically to Paradise in the Third Heaven -

The Life of Adam and Eve 11:1, 1st C. :
Then God spake to the archangel(s) Michael, (Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael): 'Go away to Paradise in the Third Heaven, and strew linen clothes and cover the body of Adam and bring oil of the 'oil of fragrance' and pour it over him.

Perhaps such stories influenced Paul, who refers to BOTH 'paradise' and 'third heaven' in his famous passage -

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 :
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the Third Heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

Does this Third Heaven sound like the third of seven? Or the third of ten? No. This sounds like quite an accomplishment - this Third Heaven sounds like a high place.

I conclude that Paul's Third Heaven is the Heaven Above the firmament and that Paul sees the heavens like so :
3. The Heaven Above the Firmament
2. The Heaven of the Firmament
1. The Heaven Below the Firmament


Satan and spiritual forces of the Air

Christians saw Satan as being a power in the Air - this is clearly carried over from Greek beliefs about demons in the Air.

Many Christians quote the following passages :

Ephesians 2:2, 1st C. :
according to the prince of the power of the Air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

There is also Paul's comments about Christ being crucified by the "archons of the aeon" or the rulers of this age. This is widely seen to refer to spiritual rulers in the realm above the earth - i.e. the Air or the 1st Heaven.

 

These passages, and various others above help to confirm that the Christian Heaven Below the Firmament is essentially the same as the Air Beneath the Moon.

Flesh vs Spirit

Paul often uses a dichotomy of Flesh vs Spirit and this is much discussed. I think

Paul's Flesh---Spirit dichotomy,

is like the Greek Below--Above the Moon dichotomy,

and the Jewish/Christian Below--Above the Firmament dichotomy.

Combining all these ideas here, is what I think Paul saw as his Universe :

I have repeated the Flesh and Spirit to show how these divisions apply across multiple spheres - including how the 1st Heaven, the Heaven Below the Firmament, is within 'Flesh'.

The Vision of Isaiah.

There is a lengthy Christian work called the Vision of Isaiah which I won't quote here, but it has Isaiah ascending to heaven to be told of Christ's mission. He is told Christ's mission is to descend the heavens to be crucified. The text is notoriously corrupt in two versions but it appears that Christ descends only as far as the lowest heaven where he is crucified by the Prince of Power of the Air (Satan.)


Paul's view of the crucifixion :

Coupling the vision of Isaiah with Paul's words, I think Paul saw Christ crucifixion as occurring in the 1st Heaven (or the "Air" which was still within the realm of flesh, but not on earth. Like this diagram :

Note that Paul's journey mirrors Christ's.


Conclusion

This is why I am a Jesus mythicist - I think Paul originally wrote about a being who was crucified in a lower heaven, not on earth - but his words are unclear and obtuse. Later, others came to write stories about a historical Jesus, and they were believed.

The Air Beneath the Moon Part 2

This essay follows my previous one on "The Air Beneath the Moon Part 1", in which I discussed how the Ancient Greeks divided the world into spheres of existence, with a broad division into two fundamental layers :

• Above the Moon
• Below the Moon

Jewish and Christians writers expressed some similar ideas, but divided by the Firmament instead of the Moon. Many writers were apparently influenced by the dividing of the waters from Genesis, in the context of a division or dichotomy in the universe.


The Firmament divides the Waters of Above and Below

The Firmament is called Heaven and divides the Waters Above from the Waters Below - many Christians quote Genesis :

Genesis, 1:6 :
And God made the Firmament, and divided the waters which were under the Firmament from the waters which were Above the Firmament: and it was so. And God called the Firmament Heaven.

Jubilees, 2nd C. BC :
And on the second day He created the Firmament in the midst of the waters, and the waters were divided on that day -half of them went up above and half of them went down Below the Firmament.

Various writers such as Theophilus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Ephraim, Epiphanius, John Damascene, Basil the Great, even Julian, and Augustine quote or refer to the division of the waters by the Firmament, e.g. :

Theophilus, To Autolycus :
And God made the Firmament, and divided the waters which were Under the Firmament from the waters which were Above the Firmament. And God called the Firmament Heaven:

Augustine, City of God :
The earth was separated from the water, and each element took its own distinct form, and the earth produced all that grows on it. On the second day, then? Not even on this; for on it the Firmament was made between the waters above and beneath, and was called "Heaven,"

The Waters Above and the Waters Below

It's not really clear specifically what this division represented in earlier times - by later times, various opinions arose -

Some said the Waters Above represents the Spiritual Perfect Man :

Hippolytus, Heresies Bk 5, Ch. 4, 3rd C. :
"But the fourth river is Euphrates." This, they assert, is the mouth, through which are the passage outwards of prayer, and the passage inwards of nourishment. (The mouth) makes glad, and nurtures and fashions the Spiritual Perfect Man. This, he says, is "the Water that is Above the Firmament"

Some argued the divided waters split -

• Below the Firmament - earthly, wicked, animal men
• Above the Firmament - life-giving, the Good One, spiritual

Hippolytus, Heresies, Bk 5, Ch. 22, 3rd C. :
For there has been a separation made between water and water; and there is water, that Below the Firmament of the wicked creation, in which earthly and animal men are washed; and there is life-giving water, Above the Firmament, of the Good One, in which spiritual living men are washed; and in this Elohim washed Himself.

Epiphanius (and Jerome and Augustine) said Origen says the divided waters split -

• heroic beings of angelic power
• demons, potencies of contrary sort

Epiphanius, To John, 4th C. :
Origen says of the waters that are Above the Firmament that they are not waters, but heroic beings of angelic power, and again of the waters that are over the earth— that is, Below the Firmament— that they are potencies of the contrary sort— that is, demons?

Basil the Great has Origen as saying the division of the waters splits :

• spiritual, incorporeal powers, good powers, purity, better
• earth, matter, malignant, wicked, evil

The higher regions of the Waters Above are Above the Firmament.
The lower regions of the Waters Below are Under the Heaven.

Basil, Homily 3, 4th C. :
certain writers in the Church (i.e. Origen) who, under the shadow of high and sublime conceptions, have launched out into metaphor, and have only seen in the waters a figure to denote spiritual and incorporeal powers. In the higher regions, Above the Firmament, dwell the better; in the lower regions, earth and matter are the dwelling place of the malignant. So, say they, God is praised by the Waters that are Above the Heaven, that is to say, by the good powers, the purity of whose soul makes them worthy to sing the praises of God. And the Waters which are Under the Heaven represent the wicked spirits, who from their natural height have fallen into the abyss of evil.

(I cannot yet find such a reference in my Origen files.)


Above the Firmament

There are regions, heavens, beings and actions Above the Firmament :

There is a region Above the Firmament :

Pseudo-Philo, Antiquities 3, 1st C. :
I raised him up Above the Firmament and showed him all the orderings of the stars

God is Above the Firmament :

Jubilees, 2nd C. BC :
Jacob, my beloved son, whom my soul loveth, may God bless thee from Above the Firmament,

There are heavens Above the Firmament :

Apocalypse of Abraham, 2nd C. :
and we ascended upon many winds to the Heavens which were Above the Firmament.

Even good men can rise to the Region Above the Firmament, thus being 'as gods' :

Ambrose, Hypomnemata, 3rd C. :
Oh the blessedness of the teaching which quenches the fire of appetite! which, though it makes not poets, nor fits men to be philosophers, nor has among its votaries the orators of the crowd; yet instructs men, and makes the dead not to die, and lifts men from the Earth as gods up to the region which is Above the Firmament.

Below the Firmament

The Firmament of Heaven could refer to the entirety of the sensible world :

Philo, On the Confusion of Tongues, 1st C. :
and the footstool beneath his feet, which is, as it were, a work of sapphire stone, and, as it were, a resemblance to the Firmament of Heaven, namely, the world perceptible by the outward senses, which he describes allegorically by these figures

So by the time of Paul, this broad view was discussed :

 

 

 

Obviously quite similar to the Greek view at the time :

What's IN the Firmament ?

In some early books God himself is in the Firmament :

Prayer of Azariah, 2nd C. BC :
Blessed art thou, O Lord, God of our fathers, ... Blessed art thou in the Firmament of Heaven and to be sung and glorified for ever.

But generally it contains Sun, Moon, Stars, Planets -

Genesis :
{1:14} And God said, Let there be lights in the Firmament of Heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: and let them be for lights in the Firmament of Heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also. And God set them in the Firmament of Heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night,

Jubilees, 2nd C. :
And on the fourth day He created the sun and the moon and the stars, and set them in the Firmament of the Heaven,

Pliny Elder, Histories 2, 1st C. :
And not only the seven wandering stars be of this power, but many of them also that are fixed in the Firmament; so often as they be either driven by the access and approach of those Planets, or pricked and provoked by the casting and influence of their beames

Above the Heavens are the Holy Ones - where it's Divine, Spiritual

Holy and spiritual beings are found Above the Heavens :

1 Enoch 47, 1st C. BC :
In that day the prayer of the holy and the righteous, and the blood of the righteous, shall ascend from the earth into the presence of the Lord of spirits. In that day shall the holy ones assemble, who dwell Above the Heavens, and with united voice petition, supplicate, praise, laud, and bless the name of the Lord of spirits, on account of the blood of the righteous which has been shed; ...
At that time I beheld the Ancient of Days, while he sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were Above the Heavens stood around and before him.

Irenaeus, Heresies 2, 2nd C. :
yet all things of a more spiritual nature than these, -those, namely, which are Above the Heavens, such as Principalities, Powers, Angels, Archangels, Dominations, Virtues, -were produced by a spiritual process of birth

There is a Divinity Above the Heavens :

4 Ezra 4:21
For as the land is assigned to the forest and the sea to its waves, so also those who dwell upon earth can understand only what is on the earth, and He who is Above the Heavens can understand what is above the height of the heavens.

Julius Africanus, Events in Persia, 5th C. :
and do ye bid us take your bribes, and conceal the things which have been communicated to us by the Divinity who is Above the Heavens, and neglect the commandments of our proper King?

The Christian Heaven is material, below the spiritual :

Irenaeus, Heresies 2, 2nd C. :
If, however, they labour to maintain that, while all material things, such as the heaven, and the whole world which exists below it, were indeed formed by the Demiurge,

Upper and Lower Heavens

Before Paul, belief in heavens above and below the Firmament arose :

2 Enoch, 21:7
And I saw the Eighth Heaven, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Muzaloth, changer of the seasons, of drought, and of wet, and of the twelve constellations of the circle of the Firmament, which are above the Seventh Heaven.

Probably influenced by the Kabbalah, there are a total of ten heavens in 2 Enoch - 7 below the Firmament and 3 above.

2 Enoch 20:3
On the Tenth Heaven is God

(Later works commonly have Seven Heavens, e.g. The Vision of Isaiah, Ascension of Isaiah, Irenaeus, Aristo of Pella, ClementA.)

Later, Nag Hammadi tells us that the Seventh Heaven is below the Veil of Above and Below.

Hypostatis of the Archons, 3rd C. :
And Sophia and Zoe caught him up and gave him charge of the Seventh Heaven, below the Veil between Above and Below.

The Testament of the 12 Patriarchs has the lower three heavens as rather earthly :

1. gloomy, near the iniquities of men
2. fire, snow, ice; retributions for vengeance on the wicked
3. host of armies, for vengeance on the spirits of deceit and Beliar

But the four higher heavens are brighter and without comparison to the lower three :

Testament of the 12 Patriarchs, 3:2, 2nd C. :
And I saw a third heaven far brighter than those two, for there was in it a height without bounds. And I said to the angel, Wherefore is this? And the angel said to me, Marvel not at these, for thou shall see four other heavens brighter than these, and without comparison,

There are heavens Under the Firmament :

Apocalypse of Paul, 4th C. :
And I went along with the angel, and he brought me up into the heavens Under the Firmament

The Third Heaven

Back to Paul's time, we see a reference specifically to Paradise in the Third Heaven -

The Life of Adam and Eve 11:1, 1st C. :
Then God spake to the archangel(s) Michael, (Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael): 'Go away to Paradise in the Third Heaven, and strew linen clothes and cover the body of Adam and bring oil of the 'oil of fragrance' and pour it over him.'

Perhaps that influenced Paul, who refers to BOTH 'paradise' and 'third heaven' in his famous passage -

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 :
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the Third Heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

 

The Christian Spheres of Existence in Paul's time

So, putting this all together, I conclude Paul probably saw the universe as being somewhat as follows :

 

 

 

 

Once again, we see this has much similarity to the Greek view :

 

The main difference is that the various planetary spheres and the stars are all combined in the (solid) Firmament. The Greeks tended to multiply spheres, whereas the Christians tended to multiply heavens.

Clearly, the Christian cosmology is similar to, and partially derived from, the Greek one.


Conclusion :

By Paul's time, the following Christian and Jewish beliefs were discussed :

• There are both Upper and Lower heavens
• Heavens exist both Above and Below the Firmament
• Angels and Demons and other beings exist and act in the Lower Heavens
• Divine beings can ascend and descend to/from heaven
• Men can rise to the heavens
• Paradise is in the Third Heaven

Along with the similar beliefs discussed in the previous part :

• There is a distinct region between the Earth and the Moon
• This region, called 'Air', is Beneath the Moon
• This Air separates the Earth from the Moon
• The Air is occupied with invisible beings, spirits, souls, demons, even Gods
• In the Air are non-physical things - lakes, thrones, crowns, gardens, graves, nails etc.
• In the Air are non-physical beings, good and bad - souls, demons, spirits, even Gods
• In the Air higher Beings take action - such as whipping, punishments, reforming souls
• What happens In the Air is vital to us down on Earth.